I think, that despite all the medical knowledge, education, training, protocols, forms etc etc etc etc someone has, that.. gut feeling, perception, even a 6th sence can help in a tricky situation. Sometimes you know that something is wrong but can't quite put a finger on it but you do something that had a positive outcome for the patient (or that situation if it is in general day to day life). Sometimes it then needs some lateral thinking ( bending the rules!) to get out of that situation to ensure that the person gets the best possible chance of living. Tom, I admire you for posting the message about what happened. other posters have said that they may have lied to get the patients to comply - for their benefit! I know too well that doctors tell a wee white lie when trying to get a venflon in me ' just a small scratch' ! (My veins have usually seen them coming 2 minutes ago and have shut down!) Take care Tom! Kate