Tom, neither of those are UK studies and they aren't relevant to what happens here. In Australia and the US, women have a lot less choice when it comes to maternity care and they consequently they sometimes have to take higher risks to what we do in the UK. Additionally, they can be significantly further away from hospitals than most people in the UK are. "Homebirth.org.uk are the most impartial readers of research" They don't need to be for you to research the topic properly. "most midwives wouldn't like to deliver a shoulder dystocia away from a hospital" How are they going to do it differently in hospital? Shoulder dystocia doesn't happen at home as much, but of course midwives need to know how to deal with it. There isn't time to do much in hospital either. These are the NHS recommendations for Shoulder Dystocia http://www.pi.nhs.uk/reviews/oe/oe_shoulder_dystocia.htm. The Zavanelli manoeuvre is hardly ever done. "home birth is more risky" Where is your UK based evidence? "I may be wrong about the risks being double (although the Australian study says triple)" And that may be the case *in Australia*, but we're talking about in the UK, with the UK medical system and UK trained and certified midwives. "consider safety to be the whole 'breathing at the end of it' rather than some flowery description of emotional wellbeing" Choosing a homebirth has *everything* to do with safety and the whole breathing at the end of it. What else would be the primary motivation for choosing one? Do you really believe that any mother would choose to endanger her child so that she can have 'an experience'? "NICE says that there isn't enough evidence - and I trust them to be better statisticians than myself. But they do say "The guidance states: 'There may be a lower risk of perinatal mortality when care is delivered in a consultant-led unit.' Could you provide the link and context?