Tom - I hope that this post was written 'tongue in cheek'... A question for you in response to yours about birthing pools - is a bath in a hospital when in labour 'safe' or would it pose the same infection risks?? I think you're over-generalising somewhat with your comment about whether a mother is 'competent' or 'clever' enough to making informed choices....... Are most of the prospective mothers you see 'stupid', then?? I had my 2nd son almost 2 years ago - the NICE guidelines then stated that a mother having a subsequent baby didn't need as many appointments as a 1st time mother. How these appointments would pick up high blood pressure or protein in urine when the appts are about 4 weeks apart in the 3rd trimester, I do not know. I wasn't offered any classes this time round and I would probably only describe my care in the community as 'adequate' as I stuck to the NICE schedule. I'm a 'middle-class' "educated" mother - how do you think those not best placed to find out about their care get on? I guess all this comes down to whether you feel that mothers to be should be allowed choices - ie where to give birth. I would challenge you by saying that I would question the quality of antenatal care and therefore the ability of women to make an informed choice. You cannot make an informed choice without high quality information.